How Morons Destroyed The Krakoan X-Men Era
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- The Krakoan X-Men era is over after Uncanny X-Men #700. A lot of media sites and critics are looking back and asking how how it failed so badly. The Krakoan X-Men era was destroyed by morons known as the Legion of Doofuses. It's time to take one final look and explain how this happened at the very beginning of Dawn of X through the end in Fall of X. Wes and Dok talk one final time about the Krakoan era of X-Men and present their last word on an enormous failure. How the Krakoan X-Men era was destroyed by morons.
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#marvel #xmen #comicbooks
They can’t write heroic stories because their idea of right and wrong and heroism is distorted beyond recognition
Yes, X-Men Green was the biggest example of that.
Think that’s bad Mystique is getting a solo. She did have one before but they are making her an anti hero instead of a self righteous villian.
@@Aloysius10 Yes and this make me sick.
Chris Claremont gave his version of Krakoa in an interview with Ed Piskor a few years ago.
Basically in Chris's version, Krakoa would have learned from the events of the original Giant Sized X-Men and would instead use the subtle approach of plant pheromones to mind control the X-Men into doing all these shenanigans that they are doing. Krakoa's endgame was using the resurrections to steal essence from the X-Men and other mutants to feed itself.
Much much better than what the legion of doofuses actually gave us. There is a reason Claremont's books are timeless while all this Krakoa junk will be forgotten outside random X-Men comic history videos.
Wow even so many years from his prime and he can still make a better X-men book than anyone at marvel can
The level of devastation I experience every time I hear just a basically solid concept like this....
@@themultiversalmagpie7827True, though now I think almost anyone can write a better X-book than anyone at Marvel
Just this could explain the odd behaviour of all them in that Era. But these modern writers just enjoyed made the X-Men like violent jerks.
Holy hell... this is genius it can explain away why EVERYONE was acting hella queer too. Just straight up amazing. Marvel RUINED Xmen jesus christ...
Hickman leaving was the nail in the coffin.
i remember when wes was suggesting he kinda left and by the 5th issue of the X-Men it felt hollow
Krakoa aka when the X-men were the worst people in comics
Like Jonathon Hickman, who started this all.
@@Slitheringpeanut Agreed. Hickman has never written moral heroes. If his Secret Warriors and Avengers are any indication, he writes Machiavellian characters in morally gray situations. I doubt he had some grand plan to fix everything by the end.
@@SamGuthrie1977 Yes, Hickman just like any modern writer despise pure good heroism. He should write just indie stuffs.
That part about Marvel giving us what we “need” instead of what we want is so true. I want Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson, John Walker, and Bucky Barnes to be well-written, and what do they offer? “Here’s Sharon Carter! Sharon Carter front and center! That’s great, right?” … (In fairness, there has been some good writing for Cap recently, and a couple recent treatments of Agent have been okay. Villains for Hire was good.) Incidentally, they talk about female characters, but they’ve ruined Monica Rambeau and other heroines. If they want people to celebrate their heroines, they need to make sure they aren’t a-holes.
I know a lot of people were looking at Krakoa and thinking, “Okay, there has to be some big plot twist or some big development that’s going to come out of this because otherwise this is just bad writing.” This isn’t without reason as some writers in various media have had stories that seemed poorly done at first, but then there was some big twist that made it a great story. People were hoping that was the case here and then nope, the writers and editors were just incompetent. It reminds me of the spoof Mad Magazine did for a movie called Eyes of Laura Mars, “Eyes of Lurid Mess”. “I thought there was supposed to be some big twist ending!” “That was it! The twist ending was that there was no twist ending!” Incidentally, that lampoon also had one character tell another character, “You reek of mothballs!” and the other character reply, “Well, I ought to! I’ve been in the closet for the past thirty years!” That joke was more original and daring than anything these hacks are coming up with nowadays.
Comics have, like it or not, always had a moral compass. I think Hickman wanted to struggle with that, then reset it. But a herd of other writers came in and just enjoyed the hell out of the fantasy of being powerful, wealthy and important without restraint. Lord of the Flies stuff.
No, Hickman just wanted to shake up the status quo and then ditch. It's his MO. His Substack debacle is proof of how he 'writes'. He sets something up and let's others run with it.
Couldn't agree more. Seemed to me like he basically wanted to do with the X-Men what he had already done with the Avengers. He took the most important ideas that came before, carried them forward and drew them to their most logical conclusions while exploring new and exciting ideas with the goal of ending the story with the characters reconstructed back into their heroic selves. It was pretty clear that Krakoa was basically plant-based Brave New World for mutamts, but it seemed like only a couple other writers really got that. Most of them just thought it was a great idea woth absolutely no sense of irony because they're either not smart enough writers to see what he was attempting to do or unironically thought these bad ideas going on there were actually good things to be celebrated.
Makes you appreciate The Spider-Man Clone Saga of the 90s!
Yep,very better than this entire garbage. The saga don't ruined Spider-man character at least.
😂😂😂
I never liked this from the start, Hickman or not. The X-Men living on an orgy island, telling people they are gods, all the foleage, the ball gowns at the gala, sitting around a table with villains talking and talking about nothing really!! WTF
The X-Men - Hated and feared by a world they swore to protect!!! Thats the essence of it.
Give us that with action and good characters.
The problem is simple. Marvel tries to pull maximum purchases from a small audience so it produced way too many books and didn't move the story forward. If they let Hickman tell a complete story with confidence they could have had an evergreen selling series of 2 or 3 collections
I´m a simple man. To me the turn off was the resurrection protocol, right at the start. My x-men died. Period. The new ones were clones with the memories of the originals. Fake x-men. And to make it worse, they just create their own nation and bullied the rest of the world into accepting them or else. This goes against everything Xavier ever wanted, just like they say in the video, it´s Magneto´s point of view.
This people are just fulfilling their dream of being the bully instead of stoping the bullies. It´s a power fantasy where they don´t get justice but revenge. This is what bothers me the most. i grew up with heroes who had a moral compass that encourage us to be better, to be the helping hand instead of the beating fist and now all that is shown as being part of the problem. Those who hate you are not missinformed, they are monsters and they deserve to be destroyed. And if you don´t hate them then you are their ally, making you a monster yourself. I can´t abide to those principles, and i won´t. The X-men are dead. What´s left in their place are fakes.
This is why it was important Hickman to do the story. It was his vision and ideas, so who else was really going to do it? This was not simply writing X-Men...it was a grand opera that was supposed to have Start, Middle, and Finish. Hopefully SOMEONE learned a lesson here. WTF20.
I said it before and I'll say it again, in addition to all of the things listed in this video, one of the main reasons why the Krakoan was a sales failure and wasn't well received by fans is because the Krakoan era completed the transformation of the X-Men into the Inhumans that was started during Grant Morrison's NEW X-MEN run 23 years ago. And as we all know, the Inhumans aren't that popular and don't sell. The main problem with both the Inhumans and the Krakoan era X-Men stories is that those stories are set in places where everyone has super powers and thus none of the characters are all that special and it makes the characters and stories less interesting. The only way this type of story has been able to work is in the MY HERO ACADEMIA manga and anime because they set up rules in that world in regards to people using super powers.
Claremont is decent at worst, and brilliant at best!
It’s just so sad that X-Men went from the best series in Marvel to the worst, it’s so bad now. And only can be fixed by a complete reboot, there’s too much damage done.
Krakoa destroyed the franchise. i just can't bring myself to see the X-Men like true heroes again.Nevermore.
Krakoa wasn't the start of the damage to the X-Men, but it was definitely the catastrophe that buried it.
The damage could arguably be said to have gone all the way back to House of M, but there was decent stuff to spin out of that. Messiah Complex is probably the real point where the cancer took root.
Thanks for the analysis, Wes and Dok. I think you really hit the nail on the head on this one. Always enjoyable and thought provoking.
Another excellent discussion on the massive missed opportunity of KRAKOA-ERA X-MEN. While I always - like clockwork on Mr. Wes, Dynamic Dok and any of the usual guests' commentary - about how the inferior writers were to blame for dropping the ball that HICKMAN set up - another turn off was what Mr. Wes discusses at the 5:16 mark - the sheer amount of minis.
All of these different minis, instead of two to four solid CORE BOOKS - and imo, even that's stretching it, but still - X-CORP, WAY OF X, REALM OF X, TRIAL OF MAGNETO - all of these disposable tales instead of just maybe consolidating stories(good or bad) into UNCANNY X-MEN and X-MEN books, maybe weaving say WAY OF X into a subplot of an ongoing UNCANNY X-MEN arc.
All of those random minis and series just turned me off just as much as the LEGION OF DOOFUSES ideas.
They were milking Krakoa from its first few months, they weren't being cohesive just stretching plots as thin as possible to make people buy everything and keep their collection complete.
I read Marvel comics but wasn't ever big on the X-men. So, if I was a target or even secondary market being a relative outsider with my foot in the Marvel door, I certainly didn't get drawn in to the Krakoa era. When I first heard high level explanations about Krakoa I thought, "Didn't they already do that before?" as I'd seen references to Genosha in New Avengers.
If you identify more with Magneto than Xaiver then you are the bad guy
I think some people identify with Magneto’s paranoia because they’re paranoid and think everyone is out to get them. They somehow think Magneto’s paranoia is an admirable trait when really it’s harmful, self-destructive, and something he needs to get counseling for. A reason for something is not a justification. Sadly a lot of people would rather avoid getting help for their psychological issues because walking around with the terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad “Everyone’s out to get me!” mindset allows them to feel like a victim. (This isn’t the only reason people don’t get mental help, of course. This is just one situation I’m talking about) It’s sad when people would rather live tortured lives than stop feeling like a perpetual victim. 😔
"Tolerant is extinction"
A lot of Krakoa apologists say it was Magnetos approach rather than Xaviers- but that is simply not true. In character Magneto would never ally with monsters like Sinister or Apocalypse who've butchered countless mutants and done more to harm them than any human ever has - especially Sinister who was literally a nazi scientist. Magneto has seen where fascism leads- he would never embrace it or ally with monsters who
I mean, the concept was interesting, but it wasnt good EVEN when it started...
This is what you get when you let your kid watch SVU and Criminal Minds.
I felt that even Hickman never really had a long term planning for Krakoa Era. Your X-Men run was shallow and he was more interested in do a world building more than to advance the main plotline that he introduced back in HOX/POX. Inferno was a huge letdown and with Duggan and Gillen taking the control everything was from bad to worse. Fall Of X was easilly one of my worst readings of my entire life. I just can't see the X-Men like heroes anymore.Modern X-Men books don't are to me anymore.
As an X-men fan I would often chat with others and discuss ideas for the X-men and one of my ideas was what if we saw how mutants functioned not just as heroes or villains but within society. When what I heard what Hickman had planned I was excited but then nothng intelligent came of it after his departure and all we got from the Krakoan era is hedonist fan fiction. I am disappointed because now they cant do something like it again and we are back to status quo. I wanted to see a conflct that wasnt just mutans vs humans but something political and philosophical to show even with reprocration and home of their own they still would have to deal with the problems of society and living
For me Excalibur and Knights Of X were the worst because Tini Howard killed Betsy Braddock over and over again & nobody asked for a Captain Britain book because the Betsy and Rachel relationship destroyed both of them because they were never that close despite morons on Twitter fighting tooth and nail with me, but I don't care for fake fan's of the current day X-Men because it's suddenly trendy to present yourself as a fake geek for followers even tho it's just corny AF
The Krakoa era destroyed the Krakoa era.
Destroyed the entire X-Men books.
They denied good writers and good titles we would have loved....and gave us miss caption britan over an over even tho it failed over and over ..smh
Marvel management should take notes of the 60 and 70 run of the X-Men .and try not to miss this new new of new redos.😂
One thing that really disgusted me about krakoa was they kicked out Franklin Richards because it turned out he wasn't a mutant but will let in fucking Wilson fisk because he was married to a mutant
Fascinating.
They needed to have resurrection to have a cost, whether it be to power set or life cycle or the emotional toil of experience multiple deaths, not just be an actual video game save respawn .
And they are still destroying the Xmen.
Yes, destroyed forever. I never will read a new X-men book again.
The problem with Hickman's start was not actually bad writing, it's that all he did was provide a new status quo. He created no threats, no challenges. He just, effectively, said "All Mutants are Immortal. Go!" That's it. That doesn't work for an ongoing style of story. Look, I get it that you all love Hickman, for some weird reason, but Krakoa was never going to do more than just meander around at best.
Orchis was a real threat and the challenge of the future and the world is the threat. He didn't get to tell the story of how that would play out
Exactly. I've yet to read a Hickman comic that's actually a well-told story. It's all ideas, setting, presentation, Venn Diagrams, and irrelevant definitions - all of which ultimately go no where, mean nothing, and have no bearing. He's interested in concepts and aesthetic, not characters and story.
@@SamGuthrie1977 World-building without character-building makes for boring stories, in my opinion. Claremont wrote the X-Men like actual people and made readers care what they were going through. Hickman's lofty ideas seem more suited to a role-playing game manual than a comic book.
@@faynarawn4164 That's pretty much how I feel about it too. I've always thought Hickman needed a co-writer with actual storytelling skills to make his ideas coalesce into a readable story.
I’ve only read his FF and it was boring as all get out!
Wes has been changing over time, he's slowly turning into the guy from Phantom of the Paradise and he's taking anyone he can with him 😏
I always wonder if Hickman was going to bring Destiny back actually or if that was a LGBT mandate because they wanted to have a Wedding issue.
Hickman : Fascism is bad and I am going to write a story demonstrating and highlighting it's pitfalls.
Rest of X-Writers : Hey, this is so cool. This is exactly how the world should be.
It's honestly a microcosm of the real world.
The entire Krakoa Era main problem in a nutshell.
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I considered this a bad idea from the first reviews. It never sounded like it should have been anything but some What-If/Esleworlds story that would have been retconned out of existence upon its conclusion.
Orchis wasn't even the central villans outside of events they didn't do anything. How many times did they just redo hickmans ideas.
A little too many times.
Orchis was a genuine disappointment in this era : They weren't a threat as anyone could take them down, from an experienced mutant fighter to mutant teenagers goofing off.
Removing Orchis from the plot and having it be any of the other anti-mutant group X-Men introduced before wouldn't have made a single difference. That's how replaceable that organisation was.
Dok for president!! No comments needed on my end. The entirety of his rant in this video sums up just about all of my hate of Xmen stories and spinoffs of the last few years. 'House of my balls and Rise of my Johnson.' Perfect stamp on the whole thing. I'm so dead over here 😂💀. Pure facts tho, every single word.
It start good then when Hickman was push out for boring storyline. Make character swing and change character sexally and moral compass for some of the character.
Except for Jean and Storm everybody lost your moral compass in this Era. This was so lame.
You are completely missing the point that they had to do something different because otherwise the few remaining mutants would be living in a zoo. Agree fucked when Hickman lost control
Just ask yourself this one question: How many people have Steve Roger's (Captian America) killed (outside of WWII) and how many people has Wolverine killed?
Wolverine has caused genocide.
Hickman is the only competent writer working at Marvel now. The moment he leaves a title it falls apart because they have no one else that's competent.
Marvel makes too many comics in general. Even if everything coming out of the Krakoa Era was fantastic, and it wasn’t, it’d just get lost in the shuffle of the deluge of titles Marvel dumps into the market. The modern comic book audience is just too small for the amount of titles they publish; the ‘90s comic book audience was too small for the amount of titles they publish and that audience was several magnitudes larger. Secret Avengers, one of the best comics Marvel has published in the last 24 years just got lost because it was like third in line in “importance” when it came to Avengers comics... and that comic had talent on it. Oddly Marvel has learned nothing from the previous times they flooded the market. They just dump a bunch of shit on people and hope some people buy them.
Awesome work guys
Where was that graphic from that was in the beginning of the video that broke down the different books into each of the Krakoa stories?
Marvel sucks because you can only write from experience and half if not more of their writers are terrible people. There's no desire to be a self sacrificing hero among them so they can't tell those stories because they don't have those fantasies.
There's a world of difference between wanting to save people and be an example and the narcissistic idea that if you had the ability to force people to do as you wish the world will be "saved". And that difference is their twisted power fantasy which has been on the pages of X-Men for years and will continue to be so fir the foreseeable future. Imho anyway, I could be wrong.
Have a good day guys. Peace 🕊️
I love Excalibur but new it wasn't right with is starting cast.
How whole line became the worst traits of the activists that plague modern media.
Tenga Toppa Gurren Marvel: This is the screw that shall pierce the Marvel Universe!
It had its moments and the mutuntkind deserved these wins but they didn’t really know what to do with this new territory given all the lack of collective vision with the writters
There were just too many titles and a lot of them bad. Throughout the Krakoa era, I enjoyed around two books in each phase. That wasn't too bad in the beginning because you didn't need to read everything. You just needed to read Hickman's X-Men and then whatever else grabbed your interest. After Inferno, you had to keep track of multiple books and a lot of them were bad.
Krakoa could have been great but it was very badly managed and quality wasn't a priority. It's a shame
I was hooked by HOX/POX and a huge fan of Hickman. At 1st I think we all thought a good explanation was imminent for X-men being out of character and seemingly ignorant of their own history- as Hickman rarely did anything by mistake or without a plan. Hickman was definitely setting up Krakoa to be a very short lived cautionary tale of where extremism, hypocrisy and intolerance would take the X-men. Unfortunately irreconcilable differences clearly happened behind the scenes as the rest of X-Slack actually preferred the segregation era. Almost every title was like bad fan fiction written by people who'd never read X-men in their collective lives. Editorial oversight was non-existent. Main issues for most fans seem to be: the fascist leanings/segregation and appalling characterisation/continuity. I hear a lot of people say Krakoa is simply Magnetos approach rather than Xaviers- but that is simply not true. In character Magneto would never ally with monsters like Sinister or Apocalypse who've butchered countless mutants and done more to harm them than any human ever has - especially Sinister who was literally a nazi scientist. Magneto has seen where fascism leads- he would never embrace it or ally with monsters who do.
Sinister wasn't just any nazi scientist : Magneto *remembers* *him* from the camp *he* was sent to.
@@spinningtornado4543 shame no writer or editor at modern Marvel remembers any continuity whatsoever. Between Avengers BCand Krakoan era lore is shot.
If u compare the inhumans to this x men run, which do u guys think is better
Yes, because the Inhumans don't were created to be heroes in first place.
12:47-12:57- “Because I was over on the bench!”- John Mulaney
The worst part about this is Seeing how the 'New Regime' reacted to and Delegitimized the Old Run. The Same language was used against the 'Backwardness' and 'Unprogressiveness' or 'Out of Touch with the Fans' and was written off with similar tones to previous runs *(probably due to X-Men Green being the Straw that Broke even the DEEP LEFTOIDS Conditioning)*
The So called 'Progressive and Fresh Take on the X-Men' was discarded just like all of the Other 'Bad Comics in the Past' for the New Run which is doing just as Bad with less heat on it.
Nothing is ever learned. But the same excuses to delegitimize the Past are employed even against the Progressives fellow Man when they failed saying: 'That wasn't REAL Progressive and Representation focused storytelling!'
yeah the moment i seen the splash page showing all the Excalibur books and like 4 other spin offs. I knew it was too bloated to succeed lol and wolverine holding a sword is sooo stupid lmfao
I gotta admit. Turning the X-Men into ethno fascists with an elitist attitude copuled with so much meaningless titles and back to back character assassination(Beast, Moira, Xavier, Storm to name a few) was an idea that was set up to fail. The Rosenberg run on Uncanny X-Men and the color books were actually fun to read compared to The Evil X-Men era and Im dead serious. Only thing that could redeem the 616 X-Men at this point is to retcon the entire era so that these "X-Men" never had the souls of the real X-Men or something.
First like!
Unlike a lot of people I enjoyed A.X.E. with the Eternals because they basically was like the mutants are deviants are enemies so we have to deal with them the same way aka kill them which I was liking Kronos doing the stuff he did to magneto and the others was great.
Jonathan Hickman destroyed the Krakoa era. HoX/PoX only works as a "what if" fever dream. His X-Men run 1-19 and few issues of New Mutant's sucked. He hand picked at least one of the worst initial x office writers (Tini Howard.)
And Inferno was a giant middle finger locking in the Krakoa status quo by taking away the Moira reset.
Krakoa was always bad (HoX/PoX is okay as a "what if Xavier sold his soul" story if you ignore everything else, including the stuff Hickman wrote.)
well said! I was hoping after 3 yrs of story it would be explained that the previous Age of Xman (alternate reality) story was the reason how HoX/PoX was introduced.
Hickeyman's Inferno will never be as good as Claremont and Louise's Inferno. He wishes he was near as good of a writer as them.
@@Oeeshik yes. The original Inferno: Limbo demons running amuck in New York turning inanimate objects like mailboxes into vicious imps and goons.
Hickman's Inferno: passive aggressive social drama, lots and lots of talking no action.
Absolutely right. Hickman killed the X-Men. Everyone else just desecrated the X-Men's corpse and danced on its grave.
I never understand all these people acting as Hickman apologists, saying his 'super secret plan' would have somehow saved it all. A plan he's never said anything about or alluded to, it's just something they want to be there, and read into it.
Can Hickman be a good writer? I guess, and you can like most of his stuff, but he messed up the X-Men bad.
It wasn't even just a bad run, but it ignored who the X-Men were, the characters and their history.
He broke them because he wanted to do something different than write an X-Men story (which begs the question why he was writing them in the first place).
As you say, as an alternative universe, 'what if' this would have been fine, he could do whatever he wanted and it wouldn't have affected the real characters.
But he didn't care about that and ruined the X-Men to tell some other story.
And then left making sure nothing could be done to remove it easily.
And I was actually interested in the X-Men again after Rosenburg's Cyclops and Wolverine Uncanny X-Men run as it felt like both of those two characters and the X-Men as a whole were being written as themselves again at last, as X-Men and heroes.
Then Krakoa happened and made me wish both Logan and Scott stayed dead rather than be part of that.
Don't completely agree but we can agree it should have been a much shorter era in which they let Hickman tell his own beginning middle and end
It's actually ten=x lives and death of wolverine just like x= ten of swords lol
It is nice seeing him finally unleash his true feelings and wrath at this "woke" garbage
Xavier was always a jerk and and u could see here a and there and he was arrogant et nd so self righteous. That not how thé world work
Chonson?!
My comment is deleted why
It was a trans leftist allegory
This is a stretch. Reread and try again. Maybe the Davos visit issue will help, as it was more about world systems of govt and power, how imperialist capitalist systems destroy our collective humanity
Why is TC still talking about the X-Men's Krakoan Era? It's over. Move on.
The X-Men used to be the best series from the 60s to the 90s and now it's the worst series thanks to the Krakoa Era, Krakoa is full of delusional villains, psychopaths and mass murderers like Magneto, Mystique, Sabretooth, Juggernaut, Mister Sinister, Omega Red and Apocalypse and they allow those evil villains into the country that The X-Men have been fighting against, And thank god Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Namor were not a part of the Krakoa bull crap.
And Wanda should have never come to Krakoa and consider Magneto to be her father and X-Men: The Trial Of Magneto written by Leah Williams is the worst book I ever read in my life they ruined Wanda's character in that book by making her a daddy's girl to a delusional tyrant like Magneto considering how this madman blackmailed Wanda and her brother Pietro into joining his Brotherhood using them as weapons in his delusional quest for mutant supremacist, All Magneto ever wanted was to kill and enslave the humans and thank god The Stranger showed up and appeared by defeating and captured both Magneto and his lackey Toad and send them both to Laboratory World for study in X-Men Vol 1 #11
Wanda and Pietro doesn't stay that long in Magneto's Brotherhood and the twins are much better off with The Avengers where there treated as family and heroes, and Magneto being the father of Wanda and Pietro is a retcon itself which started in Vision and the Scarlet Witch Vol 1 #4 which resulted in House of M written by Brian Michael Bendis a few years later and it was one of John Byrne's plans all along and he the one who wrote and ruined Wanda's happiness and marriage with Vision and sending Wanda's twin sons to Mephisto and if Marvel haven't made that retcon of Magneto being the father of Wanda and Pietro back in the early 80s then House of M wouldn't exist and Wanda would be full-time member of The Avengers being in lot of events, Wanda and Pietro original parents were The Whizzer and Miss America which was established in "Giant-Size Avengers" Vol 1 #1, And the Krakoa Era ruined Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's vision and goals for the Marvel universe.
From the mid 70s to the 90s. 60s X-Men was rather mediocre